Comments for Feb. 1st - Vote for our third 'Thank You Award' at http://www.haikuware.com , comment 0 to 20 out of 33 comments http://www.haikuware.com Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:23:26 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_614 @Humdinger I am not promoting my view to fact; I am pointing out a factual contradiction, where you say: "The goal of this project isn't really a big financial reward, rather one more of recognition (bragging rights!?) and acknowledgment from the community of what most developers at Haiku do in their spare time - and for free!" ...and then you nominate a businessman who is, by nature, not doing anything for Haiku in his spare time or for free. This is a fact, not my view. @kirilla I don't know the exact background of how the award was started; I actually think the idea behind it is a good one. But then, this is still totally irrelevant. What matters is that Haikuware portrays the award in a certain way, and then acts on it differently. In layman terms, they say one thing, and then do another. This is misleading at the very least, and deceiving at worst. I do not think there is any bad intention on the part of anyone, but that does not change this fact. - citi Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:12:50 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_613 citi: When I suggested on the Haiku mailing list, IIRC, that an award could replace (or as it happened, complement) the bounties, it was clear to me that an award could more easily allow non-coders to be recognized for their contribution to the larger ecosystem around Haiku, be it documentation, a build factory, market communication, a community website, 3'rd party code (AGG), etc. In my mind that's what the award is for, FWIW. A business would probably have to have done something extraordinary for Haiku to fit the award. If it's true that MindWork has been a catalyst for the Haiku work done by Axel, Ingo and Stephan, then I don't mind one bit seeing my donated funds be made a symbolic "Thank You" for Steffen. Pizza and beer money. :) I hope that eventually, as the award amount hopefully increases, it will serve to encourage more people to contribute in any way they can. A de-coupling of work and reward. Anyone can contribute, whenever, without formalities or pressure, and have a chance at getting rewarded for it. As opposed to bounties, where the reward is tied to a specific task done by someone else (=not "me") - likely a stressful experience and it probably does not inspire team work. - kirilla Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:02:03 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_612 Well, you promote your view to fact and therfore beating my mere personal opinon... Sneaky. :) Fact is, that what is casually written under "purpose" is ambiguous. You concentrate on "most developers at Haiku do in their spare time" (leaving conveniently out the "most") and I rate the "basically anyone that contributes to Haiku" higher. I don't see where this discussion is supposed to go. We both have made our positions clear. Karl has to make up his mind how to clarify the issue for the future. I have no more to say. - Humdinger Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:43:48 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_611 @Humdinger I never said my view should count more than yours. I am saying that the nomination of a businessman for this award is misplaced and that this vote is misleading and insensible as a result. This is not a personal view, it's a fact. Please, go read the full description of the TYA, and if you still think that it is not contradictory and misleading, then either your reading and comprehension are impaired or you just don't want to see and admit what is in front of your eyes. - citi Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:42:37 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_610 Well, citi, since the award was thought up and implemented by the Haikuware guys and a few other people, it's their decision how to formulate things. Depending what they decide I continue to support TYA or I don't. I just can't see why your personal view should count more than mine. You'll also notice that there hasn't been much support for your opinions up to now. And I cannot see how simply stating "to show our appreciation towards ... basically anyone that contributes to Haiku" would change the nature of the award. Anyway, it's Karl's decision... - Humdinger Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:14:51 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_609 @Humdinger It's not about excluding people; it's about being coherent, as opposed to saying one thing, and then doing another. Of course you can delete the second paragraph; that may certainly be convenient to fit your own personal view of what the TYA should be. But then you would be completely changing the nature of the award, which as a result would become something very different from what it was originally meant to be. - citi Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:11:50 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_608 @karlvd We agree: the damaged is already done. :) Hopefully something will be learned from this mistake. - citi Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:08:11 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_607 Or you rewrite the TYA purpose. Just keep the first paragraph "The purpose of the 'Thank You Award', is to show our appreciation towards Haiku developers, documentation writers, community members, or basically anyone that contributes to Haiku to further its cause." When anyone helps the Haiku project he deserves our gratitude. Nothing else matters. I won't be part of excluding people because they don't have the right "open-source" spirit. - Humdinger Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:51:47 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_606 @citi: What's done is done, we can't turn back now. We'll have to make sure that next time the nominees fit our TYA description, and let the community know ahead of time before opening the poll. Lets just move on now. - karlvd Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:47:24 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_605 @karlvd That's just a remark that I made, not a personal attack. @kirilla I am not the anonymous donor; or maybe I am, but I can't tell you. :P * Dane Scott (TuneTracker): what contribution has he made to Haiku, and how does that qualify for a community award? * BeBits guys: this is just a remnant of the BeOS days and is barely being maintained. The people from haikuware deserve more recognition IMO. * Shareware-making developers: it's all old stuff from the BeOS days; how does that qualify as a Haiku contribution? * Google-SoC-students: if they stay in the community after the GSoC assignment and actively contribute from there on, then they would qualify; if they grab their $4500 and then disappear, then obviously not. Furthermore, let me quote part of the description for this award found in the Bounties page of this website: "The goal of this project isn't really a big financial reward, rather one more of recognition (bragging rights!?) and acknowledgment from the community of what most developers at Haiku do in their spare time - and for free!" PLEASE, note the last part that ends with "...what most developers at Haiku do in their spare time - and for free!" How can a business qualify for an award that has such a description? I also think the people in the community have to stop living in the past; the BeOS era is finished, and the Haiku community is not the same as what the BeOS community was. In fact, they can't be the same: one was comprised of users around a commercial product, and the other is building around an open source project; both the dynamics and circumstances are totally different. @nutela Ain't gonna happen; too expensive. - citi Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:10:58 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_604 I citi I think you should come to BeGeistert to meet the people in person. - nutela Mon, 28 Jan 2008 05:26:50 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_602 I think citi must be our anonymous donor! ;) I get your point citi, but I don't quite agree. It's not that black and white. Are Dane Scott (TuneTracker) and those BeBits guys not eligible simply because they're running businesses? How about shareware-making developers such as Marco Nelissen? How about those Google-SoC-students? I would say investing in Haiku at this stage is a huge risk. Hats off to MindWork and everyone else who's got courage enough to follow their heart instead of the easier money in Linux or whatever. Even if Steffen/MindWork get rich-rich-rich off Haiku and the products they build for it, that doesn't mean we can't honor his contribution(!) now. - kirilla Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:12:36 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_601 This whole thread is unfortunate and regrettable. @ citi: 'It's also obvious that you don't understand how business works.' I find that more a personal attack at thenerd, not a criticism. It could have been worded more diplomatically. I personally know that thenerd runs his own business successfully. - karlvd Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:35:29 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_600 Hey Steffen! Sorry I put you on the spot like this. I had no idea it would provoke that kind of controversy. After all, it's a vote. If someone prefers one candidate over another, vote for that other guy... Anyway, I wouldn't take it all too seriously. It's not a rift tearing the Haiku community apart. It's the opinion of one guy at this time. And I can respect it as opinion, even though I don't agree with it. - Humdinger Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:42:11 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_599 @Steffen _F I was not questioning your BeOS era achievements, which I could not do as I don't know what they are. But those achievements are irrelevant. The BeOS era ended long ago, and this recognition is supposed to be for current Haiku community contributors, not for achivements made 5 or 10 years. I am now aware of Mindwork emploting Haiku devs, but that should not count as a community contribution, as you are a business after all. What this nomination does is mix community and business by portraying a businessman in the light of a selfless volunteer contributor, and that is at the very least quite misleading. Please note that I have nothing against you or your employees either. On the contrary, it's great to see someone who wants to build a business around Haiku, and I wish you the best of luck. But this should not be confused with or portrayed as contributions from volunteers. Maybe you win this recognition, and that will probably make you feel good. If that happened, though, it would be a misplaced reward, and it would be disappoiting too, being that there are so many other true members of the community that deserve this recognition more than a business making an investment in its own future success. @TheNerd: I got your private message; sorry, but it's not my fault if you cannot take criticism; but ban me if you want. - citi Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:48:26 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_598 Dear BeOS/Haiku-Freaks, to be honest - first I was very pleased to see my name at the Thank-you-ward - maybe because I feel like everyone would feel - you read your name .. among some people in the community and you think about the 10 years I was engaged in the BeOS world and spent lots of money and time around this OS's .. I'm not sure but I myself know only a few people which spend more hours and more energy for BeOS, than I did .. But of cause it was not visible that for example I spoke with IK Multimedia to port T-Racks and Groovemaker to BeOS, I spend my time a Cebit home and travelled to Be Europe in Paris and lots more .. As above said, I had another motivation and this motivation was doing business with BeOS now Haiku. I think there is nothing bad with it, Bernd Korz, Google, Gobe Software and many others .. all of them supported BeOS in any way. Maybe I'm still here - that's a difference, and MindWork acted quitly .. which indeed was the Marketing Strategy .. So, I don't wanna speak too much, already did now, and I want you all to know, that I will vote for the Begeistert team .. Even if sometimes the website was a bit confusing, even if the meeting-room this time was not the best thing the people need .. BUT, the made something real: To meet your friends over and over again .. They simply made it possible to restart MindWork again, too meet Ingo, Axel and Stephan personally and many others .. I of cause hope MindWork will make it, that we will have time and money to support the community and the involved developers .. But I don't think MindWork resp. me should earn a Thank you award, even if it would please my lasting enthousiasm .. If I could I would choose someone different but I'm sure you will the result will show who realy deserves this award. It's not me. And please, stop discussions about this now, put your energy in Haiku tutorials, articles, events and source code or to simply show others your positive experience with the BeOS-based OS's .. Thanks a lot, Steffen - Steffen _F Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:24:12 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_596 @thenerd I read somewhere (was it on the Haiku website?) that Axel, Stippi and Ingo had been working for Mindwork for more than two years; you don't think that's long enough? I mean, it's not like they kept it under wraps for a few weeks or even months. It's also obvious that you don't understand how business works. Mindwork is not an organization, it's a business, and businesses are all about profit in the end. Steffan is not donating anything, nor is he "letting his employees work on an open source project". It's not like that: what he is doing is investing in his own business, which happens to rely on Haiku. He is also actually benefiting (and will eventually profit) from the work done but the other volunteers that are coding for free. And that's all OK; it's the nature of business after all. But to bring business to what is supposed to be a recognition for community contributors is an oxymoron. At the same time, this nomination gives priority to a businessman over the many (and obvious) contributors to the project, which is at the least very insensible. - citi Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:18:25 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_595 @citi I understand that there are others here as well and I support them just as much as I support the three people in question. I don't believe that Mindwork kept this so much a secret as maybe they just thought their projects we're that relevant (I dunno just speaking off the top of my head). When I received the response to the questions I sent to Ingo I didn't get any hint that this was something "secret", after all he told me up front that he worked for Mindwork with Axel and Stippi. But one must remember that some of the progress made up till now may not have been possible without the backing of an organization such as Mindwork who lets their employees work on an open source project (also is there any hard evidence of how much time these people put in while at work?) Yes, it may be of financial interest for this company to let their employees work on Haiku but all in all it benefits the project greatly. Also, how are we to know that other people working on the project aren't doing so for personal gain. Maybe some of the other devs are planning on releasing commercial software for Haiku once it reaches R1? From what I can tell Haiku, Inc still runs the show so if that group isn't happy with the business sponsoring this type of activity they can stop it. I guess my point is that Steffan is donating time to the Haiku project by letting people who normally wouldn't be able to contribute so much the chance to do so. IMHO, I really don't see the big problem with this. How are we to tell that someone really is or isn't part of the community? Maybe Steffan is a member of the mailing list and maybe he has an account on the Haiku website? What exactly constitues a member of the community? That can be perceived in many different ways. So one might say he is indirectly a member of the community because his contributions are given via a third party. Lastly, I second Karls last post about getting more input the next time. I'll speak with him and we'll devise a better way of picking candidates (get more input from user or something like that) so that we can avoid another situation like this. - thenerd Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:41:32 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_594 @thenerd You forget that we are talking about an award that is meant to be recognition for contributors in the community (please, read the description in the website). Mr. Friedle is a businessman probably trying to build a business in the pursuit of a profit, and he has every right to do so. But he is not a member of the Haiku community, so his nomination is not only misplaced, but it also shows a lack of sensitivity for the many other contributors that Haiku has had (please see my initial post here for some names). I have nothing against Axel, Ingo and Stippi. They are major contributors to Haiku; no doubt about that. But if they were being paid to work on Haiku as it is claimed, then the aura of the selfless hacker coding for passion or for love for the OS that formed around these developers (which they never cared to rebutt, by the way); from the POV of who should be recognized, it has more value the work from the other developers who did the hacking w/o compensation, and it's them who deserve to be recognized, not those who have already received their reward. Businesses (like the ones you mention) sponsoring open source projects are great, but they do it in the open, not like Mindwork who kept the relationship with the Haiku devs a secret for so long. That alone makes me very suspicious of their motivations. I feel the same about the Haiku devs who kept their relationship with Mindwork and the fact that they were being compensated a secret. Open source is not about keeping secrets, but about being open. It is sad that the community does not recognize this, and that actually shows a flaw that could make the project vulnerable were Mindwork to fail in their haiku-related business. I wonder if Axel, Ingo and Stippi would still code for Haiku if Mindwork stopped paying them... Lastly, Haiku is build around much much more than just the code of this three developers; of course their contributions are significant, but so are those of several others, for example, Travis Geiselbrecht, Michael Lotz, Francois Revol, Bruno Albuquerque, etc. Additionally, please don't forget that Haiku also takes from many other open source projects such as AGG, GNU, Freetype, etc.. - citi Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:56:54 +0100 http://www.haikuware.com/20080125156/latest/feb-1st-third-thank-you-award#pc_593 To go back to the Mindwork thing... If you read the interview I had with Ingo a few weeks ago you will notice he mentions the Mindwork thing and that they were working on a Haiku/BeOS media project. Also, I agree that the $50 is just a token. The amount is not really what anyone here wants. It's more about the recognition of Haikuware for the folks who spend time working hard on Haiku. If you were to take away the three people mentioned who work at Mindwork (and their code) then Haiku would be completely unusable and years behind where it is now. Just because these people are working for "the man" doesn't mean they don't have a personal interest in Haiku. Some of the most popular open source projects have full time coders paid by corporations. Take OpenSuSE (Novell), MySQL (Sun just bough them), Fedora Linux (Red Hat), CUPS, (owned by Apple), OpenDarwin (shut down but was MAC OS X's open source version). Anyway, I don't have a problem with Steffen being listed... - thenerd Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:21:17 +0100